fl1nch.netlify.app

TopicRybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Download:Perfect 13.ctg-ChessBase Openings Book

Hello :)
Its available:
http://www.sedatchess.com/perfect13_book.html
Happy New Year,
Sedat Canbaz

Hi!
if you would like it, I could add it on rybkachess.com (under computer chess->downloads).

Hello,
Ok.its will be my pleajure to see the Perfect 13.ctg among a such strong books
Regards,
Sedat

OK; I just added your book: http://www.rybkachess.com/index.php?auswahl=Downloads

Thanks Sedat :)
Vas

Hello Vas,
And i'd like to thank you for a creating a super strong
'terminator' engine !
Happy New year to you,
Sedat Canbaz

ByalbitexDate 2007-12-23 21:45Edited 2007-12-23 22:09

Is this a really strong book?
In my opening personal book,
I have added different opening book, has added besides thousand of downloaded games from internet and also games play among my engines. But the result is not very good. In the games, my Rybka always goes out of the openings with an adverse assessment of the position (-0,8, -0,6.) or at the most draw. The original book of Rybka, without changes, it works very better. Excluding only those varying, from me you trace making to make hundreds of games to my engines. In this case, I always get a positive value and a good game. But only in this case.
Excuse me, you write in your homepage respect the book:
- On engine-engine matches to use up to 8 moveses or maximum 12 moveses
(when for all engines is setuped same common book).
- In the houses of running many engines with Perfect 13 books at round-robin,swiss or knockout mode,then the learning book option should be off.
But 8 or 12 moveses are not any little?
Besides I have another problem: I use the Shredder 8 GUI. Even if I disable the function 'learning', the book is continually modified. forcing me to long times of work, to modify the values of the book.

Hello,
Wait a minute..
Have you tested allready my Perfect 13 book,i have just released 2 hours before ?!
BTW,can you give me the pgn file please which are lost games played by Perfect 13 book.
Just a litle note:
-to make a better statement about the performance of any book you need more at least 100 games and more..
Best,
Sedat

No I not tested your book. I still have to end to download it. While I am writing
this the download is go. I reported me to my personal book. (there has been perhaps a misunderstanding, because while I was writing the messaging, I have modified it more times. I use a translator, my English is not good.) .
To have yours estimation on the use of a book of great dimensions, gotten as I have written above.
Besides the reported questions to the formulations of the bookses (from you suggest), I think that they has value for all the bookses.
However compliments for your site.

You can write-protect files.

<But 8 or 12 moveses are not any little?
-No,its not little
I believe in that:
-On engine-engines matches its the best way to see the engines's strenght with books which are up to 8,10 or 12 moves !
Regards,
Sedat

Ok, this isn't exactly the greatest opening out of book. Wtfisgoingon had the perfect 13 book
[Event 'Rated game, 90m + 30s']
[Site 'Engine Room']
[Date '2007.12.23']
[Round '?']
[White 'Erdo, Zappa Mexico X64']
[Black 'Wtfisgoingon, Rybka 2.3.2a mp']
[Result '1-0']
[ECO 'B66']
[WhiteElo '2558']
[Annotator '1.72;1.03']
[PlyCount '60']
[EventDate '2007.12.23']
[TimeControl '5400+30']
{Zappa Mexico X64: 18.4 ply; 3,372kN/s Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6600 @
2.40GHz 3600MHz, (4 threads)} 1. e4 {[%emt 0:00:00]} c5 {
[%eval 0,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 2. Nc3 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Nc6 {
[%eval 0,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 3. Nge2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Nf6 {
[%eval 0,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 4. d4 {[%emt 0:00:00]} cxd4 {
[%eval 0,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 5. Nxd4 {[%emt 0:00:00]} d6 {
[%eval 0,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 6. Bg5 {[%emt 0:00:00]} e6 {
[%eval 0,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 7. Qd2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} a6 {
[%eval 0,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 8. O-O-O {[%emt 0:00:00]} h6 {
[%eval 0,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 9. Nxc6 {[%emt 0:00:00]} bxc6 {
[%eval 0,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 10. Bf4 {[%emt 0:00:02]} d5 {
[%eval 0,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 11. Qe3 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Be7 {
[%eval 0,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 12. Be2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} O-O {
[%eval 0,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 13. h4 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Nd7 {
[%eval 0,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 14. Qg3 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qb6 {
[%eval 0,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 15. Bxh6 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf6 {
[%eval 0,0] [%emt 0:00:00]} 16. h5 {[%emt 0:09:38]} Rb8 {
[%eval 103,19] [%emt 0:02:36]} 17. b3 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qc5 {
[%eval 105,18] [%emt 0:00:47]} 18. Bd2 {[%emt 0:05:31]} Rb4 {
Wtfisgoingon claims win on disconnect [%eval 115,18] [%emt 0:01:00]} 19. h6 {
(exd5) [%emt 0:08:06]} g6 {[%eval 123,19] [%emt 0:05:57]} 20. Na4 {
[%emt 0:00:00]} Rxa4 {[%eval 130,19] [%emt 0:01:54]} 21. bxa4 {[%emt 0:07:54]}
Qd4 {[%eval 133,20] [%emt 0:02:45]} 22. Bg5 {[%emt 0:05:11]} Bxg5+ {
[%eval 128,19] [%emt 0:01:18]} 23. Qxg5 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qxa4 {
[%eval 134,20] [%emt 0:04:37]} 24. exd5 {(Bd3) [%emt 0:03:07]} cxd5 {
[%eval 136,19] [%emt 0:02:40]} 25. Bd3 {[%emt 0:00:41]} Kh8 {
[%eval 141,19] [%emt 0:00:57]} 26. Qe7 {[%emt 0:02:21]} Qxa2 {
(Df4+) [%eval 150,20] [%emt 0:02:55]} 27. Bxg6 {
(f3) [%eval 172,19] [%emt 0:03:35]} Qa1+ {[%eval 139,18] [%emt 0:01:21]} 28.
Kd2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qd4+ {[%eval 131,20] [%emt 0:01:03]} 29. Bd3 {
[%emt 0:00:00]} Qxf2+ {[%eval 118,20] [%emt 0:00:52]} 30. Kc3 {[%emt 0:00:00]}
Qc5+ {Erdo reconnected. Wtfisgoingon,Rybka 2.3.2a mp resigns [%eval 165,20]
[%emt 0:16:43]} 1-0

Hello,
Thanks for the game..
Yes,that line seems to be weak for black,i will fix it in the next release
At SCCT book tournament B66 opening was disabled,i have just enabled a few days ago,in other words B66 opening is not enough tested and optimized
BTW,just i'd like to mention in all books ( which i know ) are available weak lines
Regards,
Sedat

same here i played the queen's gambit accepted and came out of book with losing position -.08. I think it needs to be tuned a little more! Can't use this!

'losing position -0.08'?! Hahaha!!
The best openings are those that computers incorrectly evaluate and that have better moves down the road..

Hello,
Ok..its not a big problem that you will not use it
I did not promise to nowbody that the new Perfect book will never loose
Anyway i am very much satisfied by the performance of my latest book
For example,here are available thousands of games played by the new Perfect book:
Perfect book by Pavel Hase:
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18084&highlight=perfect
Perfect book test by Daniel Charles :
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18391&start=10
SCCT Opening Book Tournament:
http://www.sedatchess.com/scct_opening_book.html
Best,
Sedat

I think that Jessica was trolling.
I appreciate your work on the perfect books, they helped to resolve the paradigm of Zappa Mexico on one CPU being better against Rybka by using an specialized book. Rybka used a Perfect book, and won.

Thank you..
I am glad that there are people who know what is effort for computerchess
Greetings,
Sedat

ByalbitexDate 2007-12-25 06:49Edited 2007-12-25 06:53

I am give test your book. In the first games I have found a defect in the Spanish.
You see the following game. To the 19° moves for white, my book writes as tour move 19. f3, and as secondary 19. Ng4. Karpov recommends the same movements in a book of his (of paper). Your book, writes instead 19. Ng4 - f4 - f3, without evaluations.
Then having planned to 12 moves the book, as from you recommended, Rybka plays 19. Nf3. What even if it is not an error, a movement cannot be considered consistent with the manoeuvre 18. Ch2 :
(4) Rybka 2.3.2aing (2500) - Rybka 2.3.2a random (2490) [C92]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0–0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 0–0 9.h3 Bb7 10.d4 Re8 11.Nbd2 Bf8 12.a4 h6 13.Bc2 exd4 14.cxd4 Nb4 a 15.Bb1 bxa4 16.Rxa4 a5 17.Ra3 Ra6 18.Nh2 g6 19.Nhf3?! [19.f3! Bg7 20.Nc4 c6; 19.Ng4!? Nxg4 20.Qxg4 c5 Karpov] 19..Bg7 20.e5 dxe5 21.Rxe5 Rxe5 22.dxe5 Ne4 23.h4 Nxd2 24.Qxd2 Qe7 25.h5 g5 26.Qe2 Bxf3 27.Rxf3 Re6 28.Qe4 Rxe5 29.Qh7+ Kf8 30.Bd2 Nd5 31.Qc2 Nf4 32.Rb3 Qd6 33.Rb8+ Ke7 34.Ba2 Rc5 35.Qa4 Qc6 36.Qxc6 Rxc6 37.g3 Nd3 38.Bxa5 Bd4 39.Rb7 Bxf2+ 40.Kh2 Bb6 41.Bxb6 Rxb6 42.Rxc7+ Kd6 43.Rc2 f6 44.b3 Nc5 45.Kg2 f5 46.Rb2 Ke5 47.b4 Nd3 48.Re2+ Kf6 49.b5 Ne5 50.Rb2 g4 51.Bg8 Rb8 52.Bd5 Rd8 53.Bb3 f4 54.b6 Rb8 55.Bd5 Nd3 56.Rb3 Nc1 57.Rb4 Nd3 58.Rd4 Rxb6 59.Rxd3 Rb2+ 60.Kf1 fxg3 61.Rxg3 Rh2 62.Rxg4 Rxh5 63.Be4 Rh3 64.Kg2 Rb3 65.Rg6+ Ke5 66.Bf3 h5 67.Rg8 Kf4 68.Rf8+ Kg5 ½–½
I have also found another defect, in the east Indian (E70). To the 11° moves, my book write as tour move: 11. . Nh7. Yours ends before. I don't have save the game, however I have reached in a game blitz 5', a defeated position against Rybka (thing ever happened in two years that I have the program!) :
(5) [E70]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d6 4.e4 Bg7 5.Nge2 0–0 6.Ng3 e5 7.d5 a5 8.Be2 Na6 9.h4 h5 10.Bg5 Qe8 11.Qd2 Nc5?! [11..Nh7!] Line
I will inform you if I will find other in your book

Thanks a lot..
In this way i can improve my book much stronger,but i need more data
I will see and check the game
Regards,
Sedat

thankyou.

really appreciate your works. thank you.

This is an excellent book. Thanks Sedat!
Alan

Thanks. - I read the instructions that the optimized book setting should be used. Nevertheless, I noticed something strange in the starting position, if you set it to normal: Both 1.g3 and 1.g4 get 42.4%(!) probability each, in the [%] column which shows the true probability Fritz will apply. This looks broken. With optimized, I notice that after e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6, it would exclusively play 3.Bb5, only. Isn't that too narrow? In this position, if I switch it to normal, it assignes only 11.5% to Bb5 and ranks 3 other moves higher. Also not clear where that comes from.
I understand that you explained to use it only with 'optimized', nevertheless, you should take a look at that. Don't get me wrong, but I think there may be a data problem. Usually, if a book is set to normal it will still play 'fairly reasonable' according to the statistical data, but things like 1.g4 are definately suspicious.

Hello,
First off all,nowdays how many people are starting with ?
1.g3
or
1.g4
Secondly,i recommend as you know-the instructions with the optimized book setting should be used,not normal !
Third,i whish you all the best in 2008,
Sedat

All the best to you too. - Nevertheless, your reply is a bit disappointing as there clearly is some problem with these strange move probabilities. The statistical data each, does not explain it.. The problem is to trust a book (even in optimized mode) if data problems must be considered.
Nevermind.
Btw. I like your Top-100 and Top-20 opening collections. I find such sets of variations useful for test matches.

Its ok..no problem
Currently i am working on a new top 100.pgn and i hope to release it in the next days
Regards,
Sedat

i started using the book on engine- engiine matches and was amazed at G4 first move. i let it run for first 2 games, on third game it played RETI opening which i again let run. on game 6 it wanted to play G4 again. i stopped this nonsence and went back to HS master book, when i have some free time i will go back and test various settings,it may be my fault,but i expect a book not to start like this. i was playing 40/40 so i wasted many hours of computer time on my quad.

l think you missed to optimize the book :)
I tested it with more than 10.000 games and it never run the first move with g4,becouse the line is red (disabled)
How to optimize the book under Fritz GUI (by pressing F4):
1.Edit
2.Openings Book
3.Book Options..
4.You must click the button 'Optimize'
How to optimize the book on Playchess server:
1.Edit
2.Playing mode
3.Define Engine
4.Book Options
4.You must click the button 'Optimize'
*Note: for more details see the pictures 'book_fritz.jpg' and 'book_playchess.jpg'
http://www.sedatchess.com/book_fritz.JPG
http://www.sedatchess.com/book_playchess.JPG

ok i will try again, you will not get myb reply for 2 or 3 days. i expect you are right. i will let you know when i test again

you were right,my apologies.

thank you Sedat for your nice work on this new book.
At a first look, the book consists a lot of good lines!!!
Best Regard
Vlad Zherkovv

I have tested this book and it is as good if not better than the top books. Every book has weak lines that get discovered and correcting these lines is a never ending task. If you are looking for a Playchess book that doesn't lose then I think you will be disappointed by every book. A book that wins almost everything on Playchess can end up losing heavily within a month. This is especially true since 90%+ of the engines playing are Rybka's and some strong computer players on Playchess continuously find new ideas .. and others simply copy them.

The book seems to be not bad but to appear with this Perfect 13 on playchess that would be suicide for the Elo hunters.

Thanks a lot to Majd,Akirasan,Alan,Zherkovv,Florin..
With a such couragement i will do my best for my next book releases and the next one rearely will loose !
And i am pleased to anounce only approx. for 12 hours my new Perfect book reached at 2806 elo (currently) at Playchess-Engine Room
Btw,right now is playing with username:SedatChess
All the best,
Sedat Canbaz

Just a litte note:
The new Perfect book is created only for 2 moths period and that book is just tested only in 3-4 weeks on playchess server
Maybe there are books which are stronger than mine,maybe not ..but if its available suchstrong books they are working since many years
Best,
Sedat

To use it on Playchess you have to let it run for a day or two and then the statstics will start favouring the good lines. Sedat does well with his book on Playchess even though he is on average hardware.

Hello Majd,
Yes,you are right.
For example,i have just started yerstarday with a new username'SedatChess' of testing the new book with no any learned lines
,but as you said,i believe after 200-300 games,the book will start to use the favouring strongest lines.
I can optimize that book to play around 2900-3000 elo on Playchess,but most of the risky openings must be disabled.
But my goal about my latest book is not to play only for Playchess,but its also created to run engine-engine matchess.
In my opinion,its a nice to see engines to play many popular openings !
Regards,
Sedat

ByEquidistanceDate 2007-12-25 00:24Edited 2007-12-25 00:32

This is very interesting statement. Do you really think you can simply 'optimise' your book to play at 2900-3000 level at Playchess?
I think those who are between 2900 - 3000 have top hardware and world's best books.
Since few weeks, also 2600-2700 players have Quads and if you want to reach over 2900, your book must be one of best.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to check your lines, I will give it some time tommorow and may get you some feedback here.
Update: I see your account SedatChess is doing 2720-2800 range now. Last 70 games you are on about 2750. The longer
the book is exposed, the better are opponents prepared, so as I know Playchess from my experience, a possibility you can
achieve 2900+ is about 0.5 percent in next 500 games.

Yes for sure .. I like to run a book with non optimized lines sometimes because you can get some very very good lines. Ofcourse you will lose a lot of games but you will also gain a few gems that can be saved to another database to be used on another day. To reach 2900 you have to have very strong hardware and ofcourse a very strong book. But I think you also have to get a good luck on a run of good wins against strong opponents which will happen every once in a while. It is almost impossible to reach 2900 and stay there .. not today where the minimum hardware is a fast dual core. Also to keep such a high rating you would have to selectively manually choose only strong opponents to avoid a server override .. but what is the fun in that ?? Personally I think Playchess has revolutionized opening line theory .. my god there are some really amazing lines being played and I think many top GM's would find it a treasure trove. These lines are getting continuously improved .. day by day .. and although they are being played at fast time controls, many of the moves from book are carefully studied moves that many have spent countless hours working on.

ByalbitexDate 2007-12-25 23:33Edited 2007-12-25 23:39

Hi M Ansari ,
I don't agree on the matter that the games among engine have improved the play in opening. I don't believe that theoretical innovations are had thanks to the PC.
The analyses of the GM are always best and more accurate.
Following the books of paper, playing as centaur, I have never had problems in opening against engine, and I have never been amazed.
To my chess club, one day a boy asked to a teacher of the east : 'is this move good in opening? '. He responded : ' -good move- what you want to say? All the moves are good , it depends only on the idea of game that you want to develop later ' .
I would like to suggest to look you at you the game between Rybka and Shredder to the last championship PC of the world . Rybka to beaten Shredder without going out of the book ! Hourly it would have been able to do the same against a human GM?
I remember you thing he wrote Kasparov concern the game against the PC: ' the game to chess against the Pc are another thing of the game among human. Against the computers it needs to look for of do moved strange, force the computer to play thousand of reckons useless, and main point : to play the openings out of the theory! '.

ByEquidistanceDate 2007-12-27 19:44Edited 2007-12-27 19:46

Paper books? I do not believe in them any longer! I remember to follow Chalifman's (or whoever) Openings according Anand (or whoever) in two freestyle games and it was big disappointment, to find out during the game that two different analysis of two different openings have a BIG hole in it.
Playchess engine room as a whole can be hardly comparable to any living entity, as this is a living computer laboratory for opening analysis in realtime. Hundreds of games played
every day, and all lines are constantly been improved. Weak players are improving by try-mistake-try, average improving by book learning, statistics, quick analyse in more depth, best improving by in depth analysis. I can imagine Playchess engine room as a living entity with the highest evolution speed in chess theory evolution in the chess history. Show me any move which is called a 'novelty' from a recent over the board GM's game at top level and I will show you a stem game from Playchess few months ago :)

Paper books? I do not believe in them any longer! I remember to follow Chalifman's (or whoever) Openings according Anand (or whoever) in two freestyle games and it was big disappointment, to find out during the game that two different analysis of two different openings have a BIG hole in it.
Reminds me of a correspondence game I lost due to following a recommended alternative move in Tim Harding's book on the Ponziani. I should have checked it a lot more thoroughly - it led to the loss of a piece!

Equidistance Well, I show him that to the last Freestyle, I have played (with the black) the Spanish , following a book of Karpov on the Spanish. . Well I have never been amazed in opening, from my adversaries. One of them, a movement has played me, in opening, that according to what he has written me he in chat, had to be a novelty (and move winning). But me following the book of Karpov, I have not had any probelmas (in fact playing the Spaniard with the black I have not lost a game).
In a variation, Karpov surrenders a pawn to have after a good position and a good game. In fact Rybka (and the other whole engines), it judges (immediately) the gotten position, negative for the black. But time four move, the judgment immediately becomes draw, with light advantage for the black.
I believe that she gives too much value to the game with PC. I would like to remember them a sentence of Alekhine, what surely of chess he intended more than me and you: 'Luckily to chess they don't count only the study and the logic! '

There is a big difference between Spanish, which may be very strategical and other openings.

Hello,
Interesting question..
Yes,you are right that exactly with these conditions(QX6700+Perfect13.ctg) there is smal posibility to play at 2900- 3000 elo,
becouese i am runnining matchess against faster hardwares,mostly Q6600 @3.66GHz,QX6850 @4.2GHz,XEON X5365..
I am very new-beginner on Playchess,i started just only 1 months ago and maybe you know in my 10 years computerchess life i was testing many engines on equal same pc
About Playchess ?
Hmmm..that Perfect book is created and optimized only in 2 moths period.
When i wrote 2900-3000 elo,i did not say that exactly with that book and after 500 games on QX6700 will be aroud 2900-3000 elo
To understand me corectly,there is no doubt Rybka 2.3.2a can reach 2900-3000 elo if:
1)i will didable and optimize some risky openings
2)on faster hardware,its enough Q6600 @3.66GHz
3)i need not many years,i think after 3-5 months its enough
4) one time when i reach 2900 or 3000 elo,i will go for slow rating :)
But currently i am too tired,i need rest
Best,
Sedat

Hi..Sedat.
CG u got another book..:)
In playchess.yes. a lot of monster hardwares.but do u know alot of players also got 2900~3000 elo.only with lower overclocking with Q6600~6700.
so don't be scare..if u book is strong enough.u will make it.
last week Takker(William Fuller) got 3000elo Q6600 @3150Mhz.seem like (Takker tour3 book so strong.but this book is for his pravite only)
and Big Mc= Bigmasterchess=BigRabbit=Ruffian_chagaev= Robert got always 2960~2800 elo with only @2970 Mhz..etc..
IMHO if u play in playchess engine room.u need to update book every 2hrs.:-P..the're a lot of one stop killers..
best wish.,
Aung..

Hello Aung :)
Yes..there is nothing impossible
Even with my Perfect X beta 4 i (with user Atlantik2000) reached around 2850 elo(maybe the real rating would be reached at 2900 elo or more,but my pc several times was crashed due to not stasble overclocking and i lost many elo points) with QX6700 2.6GHz without any special optimizing for Rybka engine style,but i dont see currently on playchess server any user rating to be allways at 2900-3000 elo,if he plays against all participants
Its will be more clear after 3-5 months and then we will see i can reach 3000 elo or not,but with a big possibility that book will be private one.
Best,
Sedat

I am super-reluctant to enter this viper's nest of opening book theoreticians, but I do have some comments.
Why does peak ELO matter at all? Anyone can have a statistically-unlikely streak and attain a rating far above his natural level given his resources. Isn't the more relevant number performance ELO over a long stretch of games?
Next, why are so many ragging on Sedat? He's offering his best book for free. I don't know if it is the best book out there, but it is a good faith effort. Give the guy a break.
Last, to Sedat: it is best if you don't make hyped-up claims that the book will help people achieve this or that goal. The best you can do is conduct statistically-meaningful, controlled tests whose structure and outputs can be replicated by others (though of course results will vary from one test to another). If you think your book is best, please explain why you think so through some measurement that specifically targets opening book effectiveness.

I use both Harry's and Sedat's books and I don't like to see friction between them.
I realise that there is an element of competitiveness, but it shouldn't mean getting offside with each other.
I also don't like how members add fuel to the fire by showing disrespect for the efforts of one or the other.
As you said, a lot of work goes into these books and we're lucky enough to benefit from their release.

TopicRybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Download:Perfect 13.ctg-ChessBase Openings Book